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Esthetician & Skin Care Products > Medical Esthetician and Laser treatments

WOW!! I really started something here a few months ago. I did not reveal my background as it is not necessary to explain these ideas.The material presented here is MY OPINION. IT IS POSSIBLE SOME CHANGES WERE MADE IN THE LAW OF SOME STATES THAT I AM NOT FULLY AWARE OF AT THE TIME THIS WAS POSTED , THEREFORE, I SUGGEST EACH OF YOU CHECK THIS OUT WITH THE PROPER AUTHORITIES IN YOUR OWN STATE. This post may remain here for months and laws change, consequently, you have to investigate this with local authorities as well as FEDERAL authorities to see if the material is current in your state.

The concept of LAW is very complex. That is why we need lawyers who are skilled in their business. There is patent law, tenant and landlord law, criminal law, tax law, divorce law, and on and on. Lawyers rely on specialists as they themselves can not handle every facet of complicated cases. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. When you open your doors for business, that is a statement to the public. The public assumes you know what you are doing as you would not do this if you knew you were breaking the law. Therefore, you are now involved in CONSUMER LAW and the laws that govern your industry from taxes to social security, workman's comp, and many others that I know very little about.

In these posts there are many who believe lasers are non-invasive, therefore, it is not surgery. NOT TRUE. They were told this by a sales person who was selling an expensive MEDICAL device that the customer knew NOTHING ABOUT and possibly a "teacher" who also was under trained and NOT licensed but was motivated to teach you and "MAKE A BUCK". WHO LICENSED THEM? Where did they go to school? You can not buy an X-ray device for the same reasons you can not buy a laser. X-rays can KILL YOU without breaking the skin surface and so can lasers. Therefore, "invasive", to non-medical people, means breaking the surface of the skin. In fact, INVASIVE does not allude to breaking the surface as with a needle or scalpel. The laser BEAM does the damage an it does invade the body as does an X-ray beam. I believe every laser sale to unlicensed people is grounds for a REFUND as the company knew the law and ignored it. Federal law carries more weight than any local law or state law. (I checked this out before posting this).
ALL LASER COMPANIES KNOWINGLY BROKE A FEDERAL LAW WHEN THEY SOLD A LASER TO MANY BUYERS (NOT ALL)..

They sell the SAME MACHINE TO DOCTORS AS "PROFESSIONAL" MACHINES. All manufacturers have to apply to FDA for permission to market their laser. On this form is a question that asks (to paraphrase it) "IS THIS DEVICE A PRESCRIPTION DEVICE". All manufacturers who applied for marketing permission filled in this answer with "YES".
Consequently, they knew their MARKET WAS PHYSICIANS BEFORE THEY WENT TO MARKET as they were the only ones who were licensed to use lasers BEFORE THEY WERE MARKETED. THAT WAS BEFORE ANY DOCTOR EVER USED ONE. To this day, there are doctors who never had a lesson on laser use but they are allowed to buy one. They can do procedures in their office that the hospital will not allow because they are NOT BOARD CERTIFIED on LASERS.
My wife used to see a Gyno practice of three docs. They knew why it was important to visit BOARD CERTIFIED GYNOs, yet they had a girl doing laser hair removal procedures in the office that they are NOT PERMITTED TO DO IN THE HOSPITAL.. I got my wife out of there ASAP because if they compromised patients with lasers, what else are they doing that I am NOT AWARE OF? ALL FOR THE BUCK.AS IF THEY did not make enough as MDs.

It used to be that a LICENSED DOCTOR could do ANYTHING MEDICAL. THAT IS NOT TRUE ANYMORE. ACCREDITED HOSPITALS WILL ONLY ALLOW A SPECIALIST TO OPERATE ON A PATIENT BECAUSE "THINGS HAVE CHANGED". My daughter is an Orthopedic operating room nurse in a Harvard teaching hospital. They are now doing procedures where new instruments have to be made for each patient. I do not think the doctors will have to learn how to make these instruments to get Board Certified, however, these bone specialists are now divided into shoulder specialists, knee, ankles, hand and now a new one .... EXTREMITIES (that includes collar bones, arms, legs but NOT JOINTS). It is no different in any other specialty. We re getting better treatment because these Doctors keep trying to improve and advance treatments to help patients with problems. The Massachusetts General Hospital is now advertising for patients who want HAND TRANSPLANTS, another hospital is taking FACE TRANSPLANTS. Don't talk to me about kidney or heart transplants.. that's OLD STUFF. What is next Brain transplants? I used to think that was impossible but not anymore (the thought not the procedure but who knows?).

In all probability (not certainty) many of you can get your money back from schools that taught you laser use. It is like a veterinarian opening up a MEDICAL SCHOOL... HE CAN'T TEACH IT IF HE DOES NOT KNOW IT. Telling so many of you about how much you can make in this industry, and advertising to teach you the use of lasers to people who can never use them under existing law. ALSO, the fact you can not get malpractice insurance for lasers if you are not licensed. Under existing law that in itself IMORAL IF IT IS NOT ILLEGAL. If you get coverage and are sued and the company refuses to pay the claim, I believe they should have FULLY INFORMED YOU JUST AS YOU HAVE TO INFORM YOUR CLIENTS or that is called ,"NOT IN GOOD FAITH" unless electrologists with insurance believed they were also covered for laser . WRONG. Students will always believe their teachers EVEN IF THE TEACHER IS WRONG AS THAT IS THE WAY WE ARE BROUGHT UP. "Listen and obey the teacher", remember that from your mother? OBEYING is not always right. We have to learn to ask questions but if the questions are not right than we will never get the answers to our problem. ALSO ASK MULTIPLE PERSONS TO COMPARE ANSWERS.

I believe {MY OPINION) ALL the teachers of laser use who ar NOT doctors are committing violations of specific law, and consumer law. In most states they are also "practicing medicine without a license". FEDERAL LAW has more weight than state or local law (I checked that out with a lawyer before I posted that). I will not go into how valid is my state law because JUST OWNING A PRESCRIPTION DEVICE IS ILLEGAL UNDER FEDERAL LAW if I was NOT LIcensed, According to FEDERAL LAW, therefore, ALL LASERS SOLD TO NON-MEDICALLY LICENED PEOPLE ARE ILLEGAL
I would check with a lawyer first and then, perhaps, a group of you might want to sue the laser people together.
In my state the law allows TREBLE DAMAGES PLUS ATTORNEYS FEES. How about that... getting 3 times what you paid the laser company. It would serve them right if it is agreed on by the courts. They have the final word but no lawyer would take the case if he thought it could not be won. A few cases with the price of each laser over $100,000 at 3 x times the cost.

12.26 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

It is interesting to see a LAWYER AGREE WITH ME. I know it hurts to read what I posted, however, that is not my problem. I did give you some suggestions about handling this. I can not force anybody to do anything.

BUT, the famous Massachusetts General Hospital gave up all laser hair removal and returned money to patients before they asked for it. They now have "house rules" that NOBODY OTHER THAN BOARD CERTIFIED DOCS can use a laser in this hospital and SURGICAL RESIDENTS can only use lasers with a BOARD CERTIFIED SURGEON SUPERVISING (OVERSEEING) . The purpose is to handle problems BEFORE THEY COME UP.

12.26 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

When we had driving lessons by a father or friend... that person was licensed (I hope). We were driving on their license. Unfortunately not all drivers are good drivers. We learned what they taught us and if there was an accident they were LIABLE. The SAME HOLDS TRUE FOR LASER instruction and/or use. The means the "instructor MUST BE THERE TO SUPERVISE". There are multiple definitions of "supervise" by non-medical laser operators. If the doc is on the golf course 10 miles away that is NOT supervising. A medical director who never shows up is equivalent to a leech who drains you of blood. except he is draining you of money. If he gets paid, he has to do something for the money. If he lets you use his name HE IS LIABLE WHETHER HE IS PRESENT OR NOT. "The person with the highest level of training is responsible. That is a "court" decision. There is precedent for everything I post here. If you do not understand this... it will be tough for you if this ever comes up in court. I know of one decision where an insurance co. refused to pay for electrolysis. The basis was she was not a medical person. (in one of the Virginias as I remember it). The patient appealed and won because the judge said, "If the doctor ordered it...it is medical and that was what was available in that state at that time."
Therefore, when a doctor orders it...it is medical NOT cosmetic. Cosmetic treatments are NOT medical and patients must pay cash. I know of offices where the patient pays in ADVANCE because plastic surgery can not be repossessed like a car. It is also true some procedures do not come out exactly as the patient expected so they refuse to pay. In a CASH business the doc does not have to argue with insurance cos. about cost or necessity of the procedure. As I posted earlier...the law is clear about practicing medicine without a license. WHOA Anews bulliten just came on about a guy in his twenties posed as a doctor and did face lifts, liposuction, and all sorts of procedures in his "office". Each procedure is a separate offense. He gonna pay plenty in fines, legal fees, and spend a lot of time in jail. NET PROFIT IS NEGATIVE.
He had "tools" (like burglar tools) drugs of all types that are prescription drugs he did not have a license to possess or dispense or administer (use on patients). I am glad they got him. Who did the anesthesia? Where did he get it?. This case is going to make many people worry Where did he learn to do a face lift?.With stitches too. He had to have seen some of this in person. HE WAS STUPID TOO BESIDES HAVING BRASS CAJONES. (IS THAT SPELLED RIGHT?) Tese guys aere playing with the lives of many people, they deserve the maximum sentence.

12.26 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

Thank you gm and lawyer. There are others that seem to agree with us. Perhaps they will learn to read and absorb before telling others they do not know what they are talking about. If his state allows him to do SURGERY he still need insurance. EVERY doctor will have a malpractice case in his lifetime. He will probably win. I do NOT think laser operators will be as successful in court. I do not know if they could transfer everything to their spouse so that they have nothing to lose or if it works that way. The spouse with the money could wait for this and divorce the other. Serves them right.

A famous HARVARD teaching hospital gave up laser hair removal . They did not decide this overnight. They did start a trend as other hospitals are joining in.

12.27 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

lefty2g, if one thing, you are prolific and persistent. I guess most trolls are, though.

It is no great feat for a hospital to give up hair removal. After all, hair removal is an elective cosmetic non-invasive procedure. Hospitals are not in the business of elective cosmetic non-invasive procedures- that's what med spas are for. What IS an unusual feat is a hospital electing to perform hair removal to begin with.

The fact that "a famous Harvard teaching hospital" (not to be confused with a not-so-famous Harvard teaching hospital) gave up laser hair removal means NOTHING MORE than it is not big business for non-medspas.

By the way, please stop spreading misinformation on what you don't know. A procedure being cosmetic does not make it non-medical and vice versa. Correcting a cleft palate is both cosmetic and medical. Hair removal is cosmetic, but it is medical because you are using a device governed by the Center for Devices and Radiological Health. Even if laser light is considered non-ionizing radiation, the use of radiation to alter the body is considered medical even for low level light therapy. So even hair loss diodes are medical devices, and the use of, a medical procedure (or medicinal therapy) that is also cosmetic.

Where there is a distinction as far as who supervises, who gets licensed, who requires what, etc. is at the state level. It is ridiculous to continue to spew misinformation regarding licensing when licenses are state institutions. Because one state requires a medical director, and a registered nurse to perform laser procedures does not mean that another state only requires an aesthetician's license and 60 hours of training per authorized procedure (or some variation of these requirements or others). In any case, if you truly feel so strongly about licensing, then do something about it. Come out of the closet, register with the website, use your real name, and promote your agenda. Otherwise you just sound like a disgruntled patient or ex-employee with a chip on his shoulder that no one has been able to figure out...

Lefty,

you are A clown! i do NOT get the point of YOUR posts. what are you TRYING to SAY? only derms should BE able TO use laser? ok MAKE that point. DOCTORS can delegate procedures. why DO you have A problem with that?

did you LOSE your shirt on A laser? are you an ATTORNEY? WHAT IS YOUR POINT????

12.27 | Unregistered Commentergolfindoc

golfindoc

I had a great friend, a Dermatologist who just died of cancer (a smoker. He used to leave the office and walk up and down in front of the office with the angriest look on his face with every drag but he could not stop). He refused to do anything cosmetic, even remove a skin tag. He said it was not worth it in time, and risk. He refused to have someone work on his patients. Only himself, therefore, he would NOT laser hair. It was BORING, took too much time that could be used treating more serious conditions that were more rewarding financially in the same time.He was very selective about what he treated. If he thought another derm could do a better job he referred the patient.

There is a type of skin cancer that requires MOHS surgery for treatment (named after the doc who invented it). It is very time consuming and while it is the best treatment for many of them (not all) it can be easy to miss some of the very fine areas along the margins that will continue to grow and spread out like roots from a plant. It is extremely time consuming, yet, there are docs who specialize in this and by doing many cases a doc becomes more proficient. Every derm will see a few cases in his lifetime but not enough to become proficient in this surgery. If a doc sees a lot and does it often he becomes faster and more efficient at it. It requires an excellent ability to recognize cancerous cells from normal cells even if it is only a single cell. The doc has to take little pieces at a time and see, microscopically, if there are cancer cells along
the margin.This prevents taking too much normal tissue. If it was not done this way a big chunk of normal tissue would be taken unnecessarily, leaving a big hole that would scar and look ugly. Cancers on the skin may look flat to the eye but it spreads out AND DEEP.Wherever it spreads has to be followed and removed or it was a waste of time.Do it right or don't do it at all. The doc has to be meticulous about this or it is a waste of time for the patient. Sending a patient to a doc that does a lot of these and enjoys it is best for the patient.

If he did laser work, it is slow and if he trained a person to do it he would still have to stand there to oversee it according to FDA regulations. You can not oversee if you are not standing there.. Therefore he elected to avoid this work.

12.27 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

Lefty2g,

Would you please go away. You make no sense. You bounce from topic to topic and are not correct in you facts. Just for one in the above post you state in your last paragraph that "he would still have to stand there to oversee it according to FDA regulations. You can not oversee if you are not standing there.. " this is 100 percent wrong as this is individualized per state regulations not the FDA also in some states he would only have to be available by phone and that would be considered enough oversight. Oversight is specific to each state not the FDA.

So please get your facts straight or at least stop the rambling and flight of ideas.

12.28 | Unregistered CommenterLH

lefty2g,

I am not trying to sound funny when I say I think you are bipolar, delusional, and senile. Let's get a few FACTS straight here before you continue to publicize your foolishness:

1- The FDA does not regulate or have oversight over medical procedures. The FDA does not say "hey, you have to be licensed to perform this or that procedure". Oversight for individual procedures is often taken upon by a governing body- for example, mammography DEVICES, and standards for those devices are governed by the MQSA (a law), and enforced by the FDA, BUT the procedures themselves, and the facilities are governed by FDA approved accrediation body- in this case, the American College of Radiology. The FDA does not dictate standards to the ACR beyond what is in the MQSA. The same goes for the FDA/CDRH and lasers. FDA/CDRH has regulating authority over the DEVICES, not the operators.

2- Show me a dermatologist who does not perform cosmetic procedures, and I will show you a retired dermatologist. It is completely ridiculous to state a dermatologist does not perform cosmetic procedures. It's counterintuitive, irrational, and ignorant. It is equally irrational to imply cosmetic procedures are not medical.

3- You do not know FDA regulations. You have never cited any. You have simply made affirmative statements using the FDA's name, but you've made no reference to an actual regulation or law supporting your statements. In light of that fact- stop it. I'm sure nobody here wants to insult you, but you insult the intelligence of every reader every day. Most of us come here to look for help, or to offer help. What you are doing is trolling for attention.

4- You are not a lawyer, and if you were, that does not mean you know FDA regulations either. I am often hired as an expert witness for malpractice cases involving medical devices, and 90% of my job is telling the lawyer the law. Unless a lawyer specifically has FDA/CDRH experience, even a lawyer trained in regulatory affairs may not completely understand, in this case, 21 CFR 1040.10-11: the ONLY FDA regulation specifically intended for regulating the use and maintenance of lasers and light based devices.

5- You do NOT have a medical background. You make this obvious in 99% if your posts, all the while claiming you DO have not only a medical background, but an "extensive" medical background.

Now, I'm sure you're not 4. I spend enough of my day trying to get across to my 4 year old daughter that there are better ways to get attention. I am assuming you are an adult- maybe even an adult who is older than myself. Please act like one.

IF a Federal and state regulation overlap or conflict with one another.... FEDERAL TRUMPS the LOCAL ones. The definitions put forth by some state agencies only satisfies the individuals who wrote them or were instructed to write them as opposed to the legislatures writing them which is why we have legislatures. Like.... NON-INVASIVE, SUPERVISE, etc. Federal regulations have DECREED a long time ago who shall buy, sell or use a laser. WHEN you are before a judge... YOU LOSE. I can not say I'm sorry about that. Let's wait and SEE what happens when a lawyer decides to sue the laser companies in a class action. A lot of money is at stake here. That will intertest someone. NJ and others are falling in line. A bank Vice-pres in NY sued a spa for $ !00,000,000 for burn scars on half her face. She now covers this area when she goes out and at work.THE SPA CLOSED (in NY) IT HAPPENS.

You can INSIST ALL YOU WANT but certain definitions you rely on are useless when challenged by authorities.
NON-invasive (HA HA) just like an X-ray. Supervise byPHONE (HA HA). That may be convenient for you but not for the "PATIENT". The only thing that protects you is.... (I better not say as it might be interpreted as slander). NOTICE: UNLIKE SOME HERE ... I do not call anybody names or allude to their intellect as it is a waste of time. I use existing laws and regulations plus legal assistance to make sure. IF YOU NOTICE, I STATE IT US MY "OPINION". Similar to news people saying, "Allegedly". LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS.

Also, there are many lasers out there that are NOT FDA APPROVED. Even if they are EXACT COPIES of approved lasers, they are not approved until FDA sends out a letter to the manufacturer to that effect. I know people who took a second mortgage on their house to buy a laser and now they owe more on the laser than it is worth second hand. Ads to sell lasers are increasing in numbers (if you read the classified ads in magazines that cater to the spa and beauty salon industry). Watch the prices of new ones also. The competition is increasing and market forces will decide the ultimate price but the pressure on prices is forcing them DOWN. If you are contemplating buying one you should try and "haggle" with them.

Why is there such a turn over of sales reps in the industry? There must be a reason. Why are hospitals giving up laser hair removal and forbidding NON-DOCTORS from using lasers in the house. It was a money maker because it was not governed by insurance companies. They could charge anything they want and get cash up front and NOT have to PAY A DOCTOR TO DO IT. Why did a major hospital return money to patients before they asked for it?

12.28 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

lefty2g,

It is unfortunate you didn't take my advice. I can see you take pleasure in making yourself look foolish. Let's dissect your ignorance:

"IF a Federal and state regulation overlap or conflict with one another.... FEDERAL TRUMPS the LOCAL ones"
-Can you name a state regulation in conflict with the FDA within the context of this discussion? This is called arguing the strawman. People do that when they have nothing to say with regard to the discussion, but want the attention nonetheless, and the feeling that they know something.

"The definitions put forth by some state agencies only satisfies the individuals who wrote them...which is why we have legislatures."
-This is a foolish notion. Laws and regulations written for the medical field should be written by those with a medical background. Who do you think works at the FDA??? Who do you think works at CDRH??? Who do you think these people are??? Who do you think is the ASMLS? How about the ACR? Do you know who is AAMI? How about ECRI? OSHA??? NFPA? All federal regulations are written by those who would be governed by them. It only makes sense that the best people to write a regulation concerning a specialty would be those within that specialty, and not those who don't know a laser from an electrosurgical unit.

"Federal regulations have DECREED a long time ago who shall buy, sell or use a laser"- Again, don't quote supposed FDA regulations without citing them. The FDA does NOT dictate who uses lasers- states do. This has already been established, and repeatedly beat into your thick skull. Furthermore, FDA regulations don't "decree" anything. They are REGULATIONS, not STATUTES. Do you know the difference???

"WHEN you are before a judge... YOU LOSE."- So how many judges have you been before? I can say I've been an expert witness, and the outcome has always been as I'd predicted to my clients. Facts trump assumptions everyday, buddy.

"Let's wait and SEE what happens when a lawyer decides to sue the laser companies in a class action"- You mean like the one I've been working on?

"A bank Vice-pres in NY sued a spa for $ !00,000,000 for burn scars on half her face."- Civil lawsuits have very little to do with medical facts. Any doctor will lose a malpractice lawsuit if they do not follow one simple step (which I will not divulge because I charge for completing that step and others). That being said, one lawsuit won does not your point make.

"You can INSIST ALL YOU WANT but certain definitions you rely on are useless when challenged by authorities."- Which authorities? I have tons of correspondence from Kathleen Sebellius, Sean Boyd, and others at the FDA/CDRH who not only have agreed with me, but have made changes due to my reports, have levied fines due to my reports, and have shut down companies due to my reports. Again- facts trump assumptions.

"NON-invasive (HA HA) just like an X-ray."- Yes. Just like an x-ray. X-ray does not constitute surgery, it constitutes diagnostics. Even therapeutic x-ray is not considered surgery. Exposure to laser and light based devices in a non-invasive capacity is considered exposure to non-ionizing radiation by the FDA- NOT surgery, unless an incision is made. This is why medical lasers are further separated into the categories of surgical and aesthetic (aesthetic lasers do not make incisions, and do not penetrate an organ like the eye, nor are they inserted into a body cavity in order to eliminate or treat disease).

"IF YOU NOTICE, I STATE IT US MY "OPINION"." - That's your problem. Nobody is interested in your opinion. If you were really beyond your ego, you would realize your opinion is not valued. This is not because you are not valued as a person, nor out of disrespect, rather due to your track record. Others read your posts regularly and determine individually that your opinion is not only mostly worthless, but you spew a lot of disgruntled bs and misinformation.

"there are many lasers out there that are NOT FDA APPROVED."- I know. I report them all the time. I've filed 20 reports in one day to the FDA. I'm not a fool. Do you even know how to report this? Or are you just talking again?

"Ads to sell lasers are increasing in numbers (if you read the classified ads in magazines that cater to the spa and beauty salon industry)."- I know. I post some of those ads. What exactly is your problem here???

"If you are contemplating buying one you should try and "haggle" with them."- Really? Thanks for the advice. I've written an entire article regarding the purchase of used medical lasers.

"Why is there such a turn over of sales reps in the industry? There must be a reason."- Assumptions, buddy, assumptions. You can't possibly make a general assertion, opinion, or even imply some kind of conspiracy based on this tidbit of unverified information. Do you actually have a statistical number on the turnover of sales reps in the industry? Have you compared that number to the ENTIRE medical industry, and use that number to compare to sales reps in ANY industry? You might see there is NOTHING fishy going on other than your ASSUMPTIONS.

"Why are hospitals giving up laser hair removal and forbidding NON-DOCTORS from using lasers in the house."- Hospitals DON'T DO HAIR REMOVAL. Any hospital that does, or has done so in the past is A- doing so for medical reasons, or B- not going to be doing so for long. It is foolish to ask this question. Does Lenox Hill Hospital (a heart hospital) in New York perform breast implants??? Ridiculous...

"Why did a major hospital return money to patients before they asked for it?"- Why don't YOU answer that question? Does Cedars Sinai not perform CT scans anymore, or were they shut down because 200 patients came back with radiation burns? Assumptions assumptions assumptions. You can't jump to a conclusion based on your opinion when you lack the education, background and experience.

Hey LH and Mickey.
Thank you both for sharing your knowledge base with us on this site over time.

Wondering if it would be beneficial to simply stop posting on this topic. Lefty doesn't seem to know when to stop.
Those of us to truly enjoy medicalspamd for the sharing/advice/knowledge appreciate not having to sift thru the BS that Lefty is posting.

12.28 | Unregistered CommenterJCRN

JCRN,

I agree with you on this one. I just do not want others to think that "lefty2G" knows what he is talking about. There are many new individuals on this site and some may believe the garbage that he is putting out. I felt it was my obligation.

As far as I am concerned, the conversation with "lefty" is over....

LH

12.28 | Unregistered CommenterLH

One of the questions ask above wass "What is a particular machine". How can she use a machine without knowing what she was using? That is what I am against. How did she learn to use it? What kind of "teacher" is that? where did she learn to use these devices? Who was her teacher? If a school had ONLY ONE LASER the student was not able to learn about the others. In business you may want to have more than one laser as different ones are used for different purposes.

KEEP IN MIND... these schools are intended to be MONEY MAKING. They want as many students as possible and have rolling admissions. They want more students (or should I say MONEY. The more students the more money and a lower hourly requirement means faster turn over and more MONEY). You want customers and so do they. If they knew what they were doing they could not turn out students so fast without more "hands on" experience, using different types of lasers on many types of skin. When I went to school we were given a sheet with the laws regarding what we had to learn and the requirements to be tested for licensing. That was the FIRST DAY. We were expected to know what we were in for before school started. There were LARGE SIGNS ALL OVER, "all work performed by students" so that patrons who expected CHEAP treatments would know.

The fact is...If the laser companies followed the law, very few of you would be in business today as they could not sell you a laser. There would not be any problem about this now. Many docs do not care because you are not taking any business from them as they do not want to do laser hair removal as it takes too long for the money they get. Their patients give them more money per hour than lasering hair brings in. Besides, it is BORING. No doc wants to spend the day removing hair when he can do work that is more rewarding that takes advantage of the years of training he did.

12.28 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

Thank you very much to discuss regarding this matter. We agree with the results. The real points of how the reported information is first hand about the truth suffers even more help.


Thanks
New York Hair Salons

12.29 | Unregistered CommenterJennie

JCRN,

I agree, but I have learned that people like lefty2g are often the most quoted, revered, and believed posters on forums simply because they are prolific. He posts similar nonsense on other forums, but because nobody calls him out, he is seen as an expert. Often the only way to stop a troll is to call him out (that's actually the only way unless you are a forum admin). Furthermore, though I have seen people challenge his assertions, I haven't seen anyone actually break down his assertions with factual rebuttals that can be verified. Education is a powerful tool against ignorance, and I (like LH) feel it is my obligation to correct the misinformation he is putting out. As far as being an advocate, I can see he has similar concerns to my own. The difference is his approach is misguided, misinformed, and erratic.
His last post is manifesting his senile side...

obviously all the people here rooting for spa guy and lawyer man are all the same person.they have way to many time on their hands.first of all if its illegal for an esthitician to be certified to do laser hair removal then by no means would there be any school that would be able to offer that to them without being hit with substantial fines and then being closed down for performing illegal acts.if its illegal then noone in their right or wrong mind would accept estheticians ever to be trained to do it.do you know how many write ups thered be in the paper?and if your a real lawyer who believes that its illegal then instead of stressing this site put your degree in effect and have these school who are doing illegal crimes shut down and sued.

02.18 | Unregistered Commenterbeware

I can't believe how so many of you will not check this out at the FDA site here on the web. I am not liable for anything because I state I am quoting FDA stuff which is in the public domain and paid for by your taxes. A lawyer presented his piece and many of you keep asking him questions that can be answered for no cost by contacting your local office that issues the license for esthetics.

The real problem is the laser companies who sold you the laser. They broke a Federal law by violating the FDA regulation that says, "Lasers are a prescription device that can only be sold to and used by those who are licensed to use them in the state where they practice". You did not know this at the time but now you know. Are any of you going to your schools to get your money back? What is it about that you do not understand? It is not written in LEGALESE. You do not have to pay a lawyer to VALIDATE this information (you will pay much more later). All of you are digging your own grave. I see a number of you with a string of letters after your name. If they are accompanied by a license issued by a city, state, county office with the authority to issue such a license that may be O.K. but if you are doing things OUTSIDE the authority given by the local agency.. you are in big "do do" and getting deeper and deeper into it. CHECK IT OUT.

ETHICS require that.... IF you are providing a service that you are advertising and/or promoting as a "professional" and would seek out a plastic surgeon to get this service for yourself.. it is because you know the difference or you would go to as colleague and save mucho dinero. This means you know there is a DIFFERENCE between your service and that of a licensed professional. THAT IS A DOUBLE STANDARD. One for the client but a better one for me. This is unacceptable and unethical. It's like seeing an eye doctor for a delivery.

Another problem is with all those who are making money off of you without the proper credentials. Laser companies, all the schools that jumped on the bandwagon to sell you a "profession" that is illegal from the very first day lasers went on sale. Where did the teachers of this subject get their training? They got in on the ground floor to make a buck or two. Students flocked to be trained to make another buck or two. All of you visualized getting rich quick. IT DON'T WORK THAT WAY. THE SYSTEM DOES NOT ALLOW THIS. Taking advantage of people who knew NOTHING about lasers and magazines that extolled the features of this amazing science. All knew NOTHING about what they were promoting. Press agents that placed these stories on TV. Oprah and other women's shows are all equally guilty except many of them did not PERFORM the service they were announcing to the audience. They wanted a SCOOP. Retractions can come later.

Diane Sawyer did 1 hour on ABC TV, showing an interview at the office of a very famous Dermatologist in NY where the results of hidden cameras were shown. They sneaked two women from the ABC TV with hidden cameras and showed the whole story. It was seen by millions. Evidently that was not enough. Chris Cuomo did another 1/2 hour on ABC TV where he told about the 2 deaths and more side effects of lasers. I saw both of them but there was a market for hair removal and tattoo removal along with spider veins and wrinkles that HAD TO BE MET. Most of the people in this business are women who understand the appeal these devices have. Unfortunately, nobody did their homework. It will be intresting to see how it ends up.

02.19 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

I've been called a few names here that do not bother me because I know where they come from. I try to type fast but I am a hunt-and-peck typist who makes too many mistakes when I try to speed up as I have Parkinsons. That is why I gave up much of what I did before. When I get an idea I want to enter on this page... I do not want to lose it, consequently, I might be a little disjointed on paper, however, I do go over it and try to make corrections.

Schools that take money for NOT doing the job they advertise is tantamount to a fraudulent activity as they are NOT licensed to do that. Their current license to teach electrolysis does NOT include lasers. This is true for estheticiann schools also. The laser teachers are NOT licensed either and neither are the sales people who give a little instruction with the sale. Licensing is supposed to be for the protection of the public so that they can weed out fakes, con men, and unsavory characters who pose as something they are NOT. Unfortunately, the STATE BOARD who issue the license is made up of people who have "connections" to get the appointment (it is not an elective office, usually). The politicians who make the laws are LESS qualified to do anything about the subjects they make laws about, therefore, the system has become corrupted. BUT you still need the LICENSE. I find it particularly disquieting that a person wrote in here, that she has a license from a laser rep. What is more serious is the fact nobody picked up on that except me. You may have competitors out there with a "license" printed off a computer who is doing MAJOR smage that will eventually havbe an effect on your business.

Webster's Collegiate dictionary is my reference for SUPERVISE (as used HERE IN FDA regulations regarding who else can use a laser. If you want to MAKE UP NEW DEFINITIONS and uses for words in the English language BECAUSE IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTERESTS...I can understand that. YOU ARE STILL BREAKING HE LAW IF YOU ARE NOT LICENSED However, "SUPERVISION" alludes to "CRITICAL WATCHING" and "DIRECTING" (this can ONLY be done when the supervisor is present ON SITE to observe what is taking place so that corrections cn be made at the place, or scene, time or point of the activity) NOT IN THE NEXT ROOM OR BUILDING doing something that can not be interrupted as in THE OPERATING ROOM. One can not "oversee" and criticize or correct if they are in another room from what is supposed to be SUPERVISED or OVERSEEN. The supervisor, overseer, teacher representative may ALL be liable due to no license, but the doc will pay. This does not exclude the operator who will also have to pay for breaking the law..

In the case of a doctor who is "supervising" what is going on in his office, he might as well be doing it himself/herself and save the money he/she pays the "tech" plus what he loses by not being available to do the face lift in the other room him/her self at the same time.
EXPERIENCE HAS DEMONSTRATED THE NEED FOR SUPERVISION and/or SOMEONE TO OVERSEE the procedure for the purpose of criticizing and/or correcting proceedings, thereby avoiding serious complications. That is EXACTLY what is meant by "teaching". OBERVATION AND CORRECTION is part of the process.

02.25 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

First to lefty2g: Please stop, just stop. To blame your ignorance (The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.) On Parkinson's is shameful to the thousands of people suffering from that horrible disease. What you actually suffer from is a combination of ignorance and stupidity ( The quality or condition of being stupid. 2. A stupid act, remark, or idea.) Now I have been a state licensed Esthetican for 12 years and a state licensed Laser Technician doing Non-Ablative Laser services for 6 years. If any of that is legal I guess that remains to been determined but both of my license's come from state registered agencies. 1.From the board of Cosmetology from AZ, TX, CA. 2. From the Radiation Regulatory Agency of AZ and TX. With that being said I feel pretty confident that within any of those states if I or any school or state funded agency was doing anything illegal something or someone would have caught that by now. If by any way or reason any of these schools or agencies are breaking the law by giving me Licenses and or Certification's and I can sue to get my money back I welcome that cause it would be in the thousands. Sad to say in the near future whether Estheticans can preform laser or not will be completely irrelevant due to amount of RN's coming out of schools now that can not find any work and are now coming into the esthetics field; out of desperation for employment. So sit back and cool your jets cause this topic will be over before you know it and then what will you do? Being that you said you have a medical background wouldn't your time be better served looking into and working on a treatment or cure for Parkinson's Disease? Just saying...

Lefty2g I will leave you with a quote that pretty much fits you to a tee.

There are a great multitude of individuals who are like blind mules, anxious enough to kick, but can’t tell where —Josh Billings

FACT: FEDERAL REGULATIONS AND LAWS TRUMP ALL STATE AND LOCAL LAWS. This means STATE AND LOCAL LAWS ARE OF NO SIGNIFICANCE IF FEDERAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS AREADY EXIST TO COVER THE SITUATION. IN THIS CASE THEY DO.

ALL STATE LICENSES AND CERTIFICATES ARE NULL AND VOID BECAUSE FEDERAL REGULATIONS CLEARLY STATE WHAT IS THE LAW OF THE LAND. ALL STATES HAVE LAWS THAT EXPLICITLY STATE, "THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE, IN ALL ITS FORMS, WITHOUT A LICENSE IS ILLEGAL. There is NO NEED for other laws because FEDERAL law trumps all local laws. There are many instances of local laws being challenged at the FEDERAL SUPREME COURT level. The laws involved here are fairly simple. NO LICENSE ....YOU BROKE THELAW. .
WHAT IS IT ABOUT THAT you do not understand? (What is a CERTIFICATE? Was it issued by the state? IF NOT YOU MAY HAVE A PROBLEM.Does it grant you certain privileges that others do not have because of the Certificate? It is NOT a license or whoever gave it out would have stipulated it.
I'm feeling sorry for the level of education and intelligence displayed here. It proves, beyond doubt, our education system is failing us. All because of Congress' refusal to help the education system. Some of you ladies have children, consequently, this is what you can expect from your children unless you act as soon a possible. Get them into PRIVATE SCHOOLS. BEG, BORROW, STEAL, but do it. When you are young you are rated by the car you drive. As you get older you will find you are rated by the job you have. Later you will find you are rated by the school you went to.

That was said without name calling which is another symptom of problems some people have as it a waste of time and energy. Class wins in the end. Do NOT ACCEPT my posts. Look it up yourself but don't blame me for the laws. I'm sure the lawyers who have posted here are falling on the floor laughing at some of the ridiculous things they read here. Some of you will be hiring lawyers soon.

DO YOU HAVE MALPRACTICE INSURANCE? WHY NOT? Wont they sell it to you? WHY NOT?
Do you think insurance companies are stupid too?

WHY do so many posting here argue about a SUGGESTION TO ASK YOUR LOCAL AUTHORITIES?

Too many of you are relying on being on the doctor's insurance, Do not count on it. (You heard it here first.)
IF I WAS A DOCTOR... I would NEVER allow anybody else's name on my policy. Why should I lose my practice, which is worth a few million dollars in my lifetime, because of the ignorance of others. Nobody touches my patients except ME. They came to me and expect me to provide the care they are looking for. IF I assigned my nurse to take a blood pressure.. I would take it again to compare the two as, ultimately, it is MY REPONSIBILITY to do te best possible or REFER the patient to someone who prefers to do a procedure like MOHS surgery and is more skilled than me at it.

PLEASE AK QUESTIONS.... from your esthetician schools, electrology schools and state licensing officers and lawyers.
You have to rely on yourself as you can NOT ALWAYS rely on others.

02.28 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

How about these photos from the Journal of American Dermatologic Surgeons

I tried to post pics showing everything from Zebra stripes to severe burns (about 10 photos but I can not transfer the pics from my Mac to this page. It won't work Sorry)

03.2 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

Lefty2g,

Wow those last two post's really spoke volumes of your Illiteracy, intelligence and bigotry. "Some of you ladies have children" Why is it that you assume that the authors of some of these post's are all ladies? Am I to assume that your complete lack of intelligence and fanatical rants mean you are a man? To assume anything is "a stupid thing to do". Thus whenever you "assume" something, you are in fact asking for someone to help you out with something of great difficulty and that is why I am going to help you.

Obliviously it is very difficult for you to understand "Stop" which is very concerning for me to think how you must have passed your driving test when there are these eight-sided big red signs in shape of octagon. That have white letters in them ( I'm going to use colors and shapes due to your illiteracy,comprehension problem) well those signs spell STOP and that means to 1. to cease (posting). 2. discontinue (posting) 3. to restrain (posting). 4. put an end to (posting). Basically don't move a finger...sorry that might be hard for you with the Parkinson's. I know that with your disease cognitive and behavioral problems arise along with dementia and emotional problems. As we have all seen and read here with all of your post's. Now that I have schooled you, how was that "Class" for you? If there still is any questions it's called "Hooked on Phonics" It may OR may not work for you.

As for "Zebra stripes and Burns" yeah I have have seen them. I have seen them caused by a Ophthalmologist, Gynecologist, Proctologist and a Dermatologist. The Dermatologist that one was my favorite and guess what Lefty they all had the M.D. after their name. (weird I know right?! ) Of course I have seen them caused by Estheticans, Laser Technicians as well. It just goes to prove there are idiots in every field no matter what occupation, I mean look at you; you are a perfect example. So remember the next time you want to post something think about that big red sign it means STOP and if you don't and you continue to post well ..we all know what that means. You have proved that 1. you can't read. 2. you don't know your shapes. 3. you don't even know your colors.

Like that old saying "You can lead a horse to water but, you can't make it drink." MEANING: People, like horses, will only do what they have a mind to do.-old English proverb
Sometimes you just can't help stupid.

Lefty2G,

Since you are judging. My Author Name: Mercedes,L.E.,C.L.T.,S.F.S.U.,U.C.S.C,N.L.I. means
1. The car I drive (2010 Mercedes-Benz E-Class almost paid off).
2. My occupation.(I work with a Cosmetic Dermatologist-M.D. who is published in Medical Journals and well known and respected world wide.)
3. Two of College's in which I graduated from "magna cum laude"- that's Latin for top 10% of my class (3.89) I'll probably die before they are all paid off. But hey didn't you say I could sue cause they all are fraudulent? cause well not sure if any State College and or Private College are recognized by "FEDERAL LAWS and or FEDERAL REGULATIONS" I didn't see any Federal Stamps on my diploma ... Last was my Laser School which you say is also fraudulent.
I'm looking to get a lot of $$ back from all those idiots!
Thank goodness I read your post's myself and a lot of other people are gonna be a millionaire's but, you will still be Illiterate, unintelligent and a bigot. Oh yeah and stupid.

I worked with RHF devices as I am licensed for that. FDA rules for these devices are the same as for lasers, however, I am licensed, therefore it is legal and I had insurance.

My device generated HEAT and worked below the surface. I am not familiiar with thermage claims. I just googled them. there is a big area explaining side effects of blistering and burns. I did not red the whole thing. FDA insisted I be licensed to use mine. IF you are MELTING FAT you are ALTERING THE STRUCTURE AND FUNCTION OF THE AREA YOU ARE WORKING ON. FAT HAS A FUNCTION. It is the excess that women do not like but it still has a function. You are using it to alter the structure of tissue, therefore, I would call it a prescription device. Contact FDA on an 800 number to get the final word. What does the company claim? If claims are for appearance... you are changing shape. .

03.2 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

I'll try one more time. If a cop issues you a ticket for whatever and his Captain tells him to "Throw it away" (I know he would not but this is a hypothetical). We ALL know the cop would obey his Captain. He would say, "Yes Sir" and find a way to do it. Why? Because the Captain OUTRANKS THE COP and can make sure the cop NEVER gets a promotion. That cop could be on night duty pounding a beat somewhere on the edge of town for the rest of his life. Well, the FDA outranks everybody EXCEPT the PRESIDENT. Therefore, everybody MUST follow orders from the top of the chain or there would be no order in the system. FDA OUTRANKS ALL and they say, "You HAVE TO BE LICENSED". That means whatever the state says means nothing IF the state and FDA DIFFER....FDA WINS EVERY TIME.What is it about that statement so many of you do NOT understand? Is reading comprehension so poor that most of you do NOT understand or just refuse to face reality.

YO MERCEDES>>>> A tip. You have called me names and slandered me here for ALL TO SEE . There is a PERMANENT RECORD HERE. I could SUE you for slander. YES MOST OF THE ESTHETICIANS ARE FEMALE. IF you do not know this I am truly surprised. Does that mean I am not, as you said, a bigot or does that mean you are not the brightest one in the litter." (JUST ASKING) You make the choice. There are some of you who recognize the risks you are taking and are starting to ask questions. That is good provided you check it out before you take any drastic action.

YO Mercedes, GOTCHA

03.3 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

Can somebody PLEASE explain to me the difference between an ethicist and a medical ethicist. Also the difference between a MED -SPA and an ordinary SPA. If it is called a MED anything does that mean they do medical procedures?

What are the names of the procedures each does and what is the difference that makes one a MED anything compared to a regular SPA> Does the state that issues a MED SPA license also issue a regular SPA license? JUST ASKING TO LEARN the procedures being offered.

I think it is GREAT to get pampered, massaged, and anything that feels good. It is relaxing and must make the clients feel GREAT, RELAXED, and ready to face the world.

I'm having a problem making an entry. I hope it is not duplicated.

03.3 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

CHECK the FDA web site. It opens with, "LASERS ARE PRESCRIPTION DEVICES that can only be used by and sold to those who are licensed to use them in the state where they practice. Again.... IF it were a fact that ANY state issues such a license .....the answer is THE FEDERAL REGULATIONS HAVE MORE WEIGHT THAN ANY STATE law or regulation, consequently, It is ILLEGAL TO OPERATE ANY LASER unless you are licensed by a federal agency and they DO NOT DO IT. It is also illegal for NON docs to operate ALL THE MEDICAL DEVICES YOU ARE ALL INSISTING IT IS OK FOR YOU TO OPERATE OR OWN, OR LEASE. Your contract with the bank for a loan is LEGAL and you owe the money to use an illegal device. That is separate from any contract you have with a laser company. but the company that sold you the laser or any other MEDICAL DEVICE, IN MY OPINION, MISREPRESENTED IT TO YOU , CONSEQUENTLY,(IN MY OPINION), you have a case with them, in my opinion.(Remember the words "MY OPINION" and "ALLEGEDLY"). In MY OPINION, ANY INDIVIDUAL OR COMPANY THAT HAS NO QUALMS ABOUT MISREPRESENTING THEIR DEVICES OR ANY ITEM SHOULD BE PUT OUT OF BUSINESS.

I am of the opinion, there may be a market for these devices, however, if it is only legal to operate for a few individuals, I would think that reduces the market for these machines BECAUSE DocsTHOUGHT they could hire a low salary person (nurses are too expensive even IF they were able to use them and they are NOT, to increase his/her own income as they do NOT want to treat a pimple, remove hair and a number of other low paying procedures. ALL THE REPLIES by docs as to the most profitable area of their practice, usually state,"SURGERY MAKES THE BIG MONEY, therefore,.why should they spend their time doing low paying procedures. Doc HAVE TO CHARGE MORE because they have EXPENSIVE INSURANCE plus the expense of paying benefits for employees, workmans comp, health insurance, social security taxes and more... They do NOT keep all that money. Laser operators do not have INSURANCE TO DO SURGERY and virtually ALL LASER procedures are PRESCRIPTION PROCEDURES. The number of laws being broken every day is phenominal. Laser operators insist they are legal, however, they did not read the laws or understand them. I do not want to see anyone get hurt by undertrained operators.

If it was legal, all independent operators might make more but you still have to pay for advertising, RENT, etc.. In my opinion, the schools are liable too because they told you how much you could make without telling you it was not legal. Many students were DUPED into paying large sums to learn an illegal subject. IF the teachers were legal... there is more money in teaching than doing these procedures except, IN MY OPINION, they did not get adequate instruction either, consequently, how can they teach it IF THEY DO NOT KNOW IT. Who taught them? Where did they get licensed? A license is ONLY GOOD IN THE JURISDICTION WHERE THEY GET ONE. It usually is NOT transferable to another state. If it was me, I would get a few laser operators together and sue the teacher as a group. I would also sue the laser companies.

Even electrolysis devices are not legal lf there is no license to use it. Some states do not have a large enough population to support an electrolysis school. In tiny Rhode Island you have to find a licenesd person to be your mentor so you can apprentice under them. If your teacher is good you are LUCKY but how do you know.? Students know very little. They believe teachers but not all of them know whast they are doing. All doc are legally able to buy a laser AND USE IT even if he never had any instruction on it. Crazy system isn't it.

03.11 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

whenever I come along posts like this, I get extremely annoyed. Each state is different, and has different rules and regulations on who can perform lasers. Some states (like NJ) only allow a MD/DO to perform laser services legally. Some states like FL, require a PA, NP, MD or CME (certified medical electrolysis) to perform laser services legally. Now a CME is not a medical license, it is a state license, and to perform lasers with a CME one must still get laser certified, which is just a certification, which is all some states do require. NY does allow ANYONE to perform laser services, as long as they are performing under a physician (referred to as a medical director). Now in NY it is cheaper to ensure a esthetician then someone only trained through the company hired from. NY also has schools that are just laser technician schools, which is not a license just a certificate. Point is, if you are curious on what your state allows do your own research. Contact your state, call local business' (national laser clinics that have a local clinic) and your insurance company. DO not take some lawyers word from posting on a blog site. Don't even take my word for it (except NY because I work and perform laser there now) I know of these other states laws because I lived in each of them, did my research (contacted the state) but doesnt mean their laws haven't changed

04.29 | Unregistered Commenterlo

Yo mg....
Somebody above your post just graduated from estheticians school and posted here that he/she is now doing MEDICAL esthetics. I do not know the exact difference between both of them but I assume it is SAFE to say there is a difference between the two. Since EACH STATE has their own definition of the two... there must be an overlap in most instances.

I understand that each state has its own definition of what a license allows, however, it is common for licencees to expand the serviees they provide to include "OFF LABEL" use . Off Label means EVEN A DOCTOR is treading on dngerous ground because the procedure has NOT been approved as SAFE AND EFFECTIVE as yet and may NEVER be approved. NON-physicians do not have the EXPERIENCE, EDUCATION, OR INSURANCE to do OFF LABEL procedures as THAT IS EXPERIMENTING ON A HUMAN and carries all sorts of problems. I find it is a waste of time to to discuss this with nonlicensed individuals because they are of the opinion they have a good thing going but they are kidding themselves. It will hit the fan eventually.

The large number of franchisees who were cheated is an example of how easy it is to CON people. They do not know what they are doing and are paying for it. The example you gave about having a medicasl director is a poor example because according to cases already ajudicated.... The name on the door, or advertising, with the highest level of training is liable. Medical directors who are absent are still liable. FDA states OVERSIGHT BY A DOC FOR "CRITICAL SUPERVISION and direction" is the order of the day. I did not write the law and poor enforcement of existing law is probably correct, however, that is no excuse when you go to court. Lawyers have publications that report what is happening in the courts all over the country. A serious problem is the fact that many of the damages are not life threatening, consequently, how much can you sue for. Lawyers sue for damages and a burn or small sar is nit wort much money in the courts. Lawyers refuse to take these cases as they have a lot of work for little money. This does not make the operator safe as they can still be arrested for PRACTICING MEDICINE WITHOUT A LICENSE. . POOR DISTRICT ATTOURNEYS is the reason there has been poor enforcement. It appears these people are swamped with DUI, drugs and other things, consequently, no action

04.30 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

Yo mg....
Somebody above your post just graduated from estheticians school and posted here that he/she is now doing MEDICAL esthetics. I do not know the exact difference between both of them but I assume it is SAFE to say there is a difference between the two. Since EACH STATE has their own definition of the two... there must be an overlap in most instances.

I understand that each state has its own definition of what a license allows, however, it is common for licencees to expand the serviees they provide to include "OFF LABEL" use . Off Label means EVEN A DOCTOR is treading on dngerous ground because the procedure has NOT been approved as SAFE AND EFFECTIVE as yet and may NEVER be approved. NON-physicians do not have the EXPERIENCE, EDUCATION, OR INSURANCE to do OFF LABEL procedures as THAT IS EXPERIMENTING ON A HUMAN and carries all sorts of problems. I find it is a waste of time to to discuss this with nonlicensed individuals because they are of the opinion they have a good thing going but they are kidding themselves. It will hit the fan eventually.

The large number of franchisees who were cheated is an example of how easy it is to CON people. They do not know what they are doing and are paying for it. The example you gave about having a medicasl director is a poor example because according to cases already ajudicated.... The name on the door, or advertising, with the highest level of training is liable. Medical directors who are absent are still liable. FDA states OVERSIGHT BY A DOC FOR "CRITICAL SUPERVISION and direction" is the order of the day. I did not write the law and poor enforcement of existing law is probably correct, however, that is no excuse when you go to court. Lawyers have publications that report what is happening in the courts all over the country. A serious problem is the fact that many of the damages are not life threatening, consequently, how much can you sue for. Lawyers sue for damages and a burn or small sar is nit wort much money in the courts. Lawyers refuse to take these cases as they have a lot of work for little money. This does not make the operator safe as they can still be arrested for PRACTICING MEDICINE WITHOUT A LICENSE. . POOR DISTRICT ATTOURNEYS is the reason there has been poor enforcement. It appears these people are swamped with DUI, drugs and other things, consequently, no action

04.30 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

Hi Mercedes..... (yes you, the one with more initials after your name than in your name)

I have no intention of getting into a discussion as to how many estheticians are female vs male or how many of them have or expect to have children as it is none of my business. I cannot understand what you are driving at. Reading comprehension does not seem to be your strong suit.

I have Parkinsons disease that prevents me fron doing what I was trained to do but it has no effect on my thinking ability. The problem here is the unwillingness of people to verify what they are doing to see if it is legal or not. I do not want to call it stupidity as there must be a word that covers it. Perhaps a new word or phrase has to be invented. Something like "PERMANENT REDUCTION".

04.30 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

Lefty2g, you worked on RHF devices??? Right heart failure??? Or did you mean RF devices???

And ethicist??? You mean esthetician??? So confused... where are my meds???

Yo. Alex......I hope that by now you have inquired from the state agency that issues your license as to exactly what your license allows you to do with DEFINITIONS of each procedure and device you can operate. I am disappointed that you do not know what yo are licensed to do. I am more surprised that the agency allows you to do anything. REgardless of anything... I am surprised you asked people here as each state has their own requirements and definitions, consequently, people here are not reliable for information for your state.

05.26 | Unregistered CommenterLefty2g

surprise. .....no matter what license or certificate a person. Has.....IF an insurance company refused to insure me.... I would NEVER open in that state. Nobody has mentioned this at any time.

A doc would NEVER open an office whithout insurance. WOuldyou ever go to a doc who did not have malpractice insurance? They insure risk. But NEVER take any. Do you have any? NO matter what the laws state.....they do not have to insure anybody for any reason. If they do not insure you.....you are taking one big risk. If they insure you...you
are PROBABLY SAFE but do not trust. Me. That is only an opinion .

CHECK IT OUT!!!

05.30 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

I recently graduated from an esthetic school in NY. I completed the program at the top of my class with advanced certifications in LASER's, chemical peels, reflexology and lymphatic drainage. All the advanced classes were taught by respected reputable doctor's in the area. The Dr. who taught our LASER class works for the Palomar LASER company and went over NYS regulations with us. In NY, estheticians can operate a LASER for hair removal in a regular spa setting without a Dr. on the premis. In a medispa enviornment an aesthetician can preform more procedures as long as there is a Dr. in house.

I would also like to say that I think it is crazy that any Dr. just because they are a Dr. can operate a LASER and treat a condition like telangestacia for example. In my mind that says that a OB/GYN can go purchase a LASER and perform procedures because he/she is a Dr. yet he/she hasn't had extensive education regarding the skin and what a LASER could do to the skin depending on the patients skin type according to the Fitzpatrick Scale and what fluences the machine should be set at.

I think that the people who are educated in their field of practice should be able to operate devices that are directly related to their scope of practice...with that said, should metal cutters in an industrial factory not cut metal with LASERS because they aren't doctors?

Thank you to the educated people who posted on this site, your information has been helpful to me. I think some others should not speak about topics in which they know nothing about.

Melissa,

So what you are saying is that a physician with 4 years of undergraduate training, 4 years of medical school and a minimum of 3 years of residency are not as qualified to use a laser as an recent graduate from an aesthetic school and 2 weeks of laser training.

Once you learn that you know absolutley nothing about what you are talking will your true education begin. Like you said, "I think some others should not speak about topics in which they know nothing about". Apparently, this includes you.

I do not mean to be harsh on you but there are a lot of individuals that post on here that are very smart people. Many of these smart people that you think have been helpful are the exact ones YOU feel should not be operating a laser.

Lornell E. Hansen II, M.D.
www.LazaDerm.com

07.13 | Unregistered CommenterLH

LH is absolutely correct as usual.

If I may interupt the nearly year long banter & heated discussions of late, since it appears by all of the deeply researched responses this a group that will do their homework prior to responding...I would appreciate some educated enlightenment on a different matter. Can the practice of performing Dermaplaning in CA be clarified? The intention of this procedure is NOT to break the surface of living skin, it is meant to rapidly shed dead skin cells, which in turn, also removes vellus hairs from the surface of the face,(similariy to shaving) but a scalpel is utilized. In addition, Can I, as a Clinical Aesthetician in CA perform Micro-Dermarolling? I have received just as many "yes" answers, as "no's" on both procedures. HELP!!!!

Aesthetics Studio,

The only way you are going to find out is by contacting either the medical board or the board under which your license is granted. The difficulty with getting answers on here are that all of the states are different. I have an aesthetician that works for me. I have clinics in 2 states in one state she can not do anything that breaks the skin but in the other state she can run lasers etc.

If you do not get straight answers, hire a lawyer as your license can be on the line.

Lornell E. Hansen II, M.D.
www.LazaDerm.com

07.15 | Unregistered CommenterLH

can i esthetician perform ipl treatment at a dr office in the state of virginia.i called the state board and they told me yes.

08.3 | Unregistered Commenteranna

ny and ct anyone can use any class of laser ipl ect. sort of crazy but true. I work in both states

Aboslutely wrong Tresa. Obviously the laser reps have spoken to you or the others who have been going under the radar.
The law in NY is clear any laser ( class IV )that alter any level of celluar activiry is considered to be the practice of medicine and rquires a medical education. There are only 3 legal practitioners for this MD/ ANP under MD colaboration, PA under MD supervision no one else. The specific areas that are medical procedures are laser tattoo removal, resurfacing fractional and non, skin tightening, contouring, laser vein ablation, pigment ablation.
The impression that in NY anything goes stems from the department of prof disciplines slow responce closing illegal spas and the fact that many people get by without incident thus no one is the wiser. Laser reps often say that in NY anything goes but when the spa and its medical directors are sitting in court with the technicians sited for practicing medicine and the medical director sited for abeting the illegal practice and or attempted transfer of medical knowledge ( Im wrong with the last one, I cant think of the exact term at the moment but it is based on a physician cant teach a medical procedure to a non medical person). Well I have yet to see a laser salesman in the court room after the sale.

Fact in point ask a laser rep if you can just go buy a class IV device and you will find you require a medical license to do so, ergo the statement is wrong.

11.21 | Unregistered Commentergm

I checked with another Dermatilogist in CT and the law in Ct is strict as well. In CT the least acceptable degree one must hold in order to fire a laser even for laser hair is an RN degree. The CT law is set that no esteticians can perform laser hair etc MD,P A, RN.
Anyone else is basically going along under the radar unitl the day something goes wrong.

11.22 | Unregistered Commentergm

The Medcal DOPL needs to update and be very specific about who can administer certain procedures and who can't. I think the problem stems from esthetics crossing over the line of medicine and is not well defined in its practice. I think whats important here is that who ever is performing a laser procedure that they be properly trained on how to use it properly and safely. It's really not rocket science it will tell you right on the handle the darker the skin tone you need to use a lower voltage. In some states like Utah a master esthetician can do more than an RN can do which I believe is totally ridiculous an RN has alot more training in anatomy and physiology and pathophisiology and does many invasive procedures and also have many years of extra training depending om your specialty. My gosh if your capable of diagnosing a heart attack when the results come back and if their a candidate for thrombolitics before the doctor walks in the room you should be capable of doing laser and derma fills give me a break!

08.7 | Unregistered Commenterflonite

Goodness, this is the longest post on any site I have ever seen. I am looking to go to Aveda school for Aesthetics. Has anyone attended that school? I also wanted to go to the Laser Institute in Seattle to take some CE's for hair removal...


Thanks :D OH, and I am from the South... Not sure why that is relevant. Rude.

Wow, I came here for some information but this site did not help at all; more confused! I first went to a plastic surgeons grand opening and met a man who was discussing Alma Lasers and it sounded great..... The plastic surgeon opted not to get the laser because of the expense. The plastic surgeon's esthetician decided to branch out on her own and called a few of us to let us know she has the laser.....

Long story short, I had 3 treatments of the Alma 360 done and something went wrong on the last treatment. I went back to the plastic surgeon to see what could be done and explained the situation. 1. I am now scarred with those strips one of the guys above was talking about, I lost pigmentation in my face so it does not match in many areas. 2. The plastic surgeon informed me that the man who was doing my treatments IS THE DAMN SALES REP FOR ALMA LASERS!!!! She says it is totally illegal what the esthetician and the sales rep are doing. They are charging 500.00 for the 360 and he comes about once a month. I contacted Alma and they wont respond..... I am left with scars 5 lines on my neck and skin that looks like crap.. I am out of pocket over 4,500 trying to fix what he has done. Funny, while he was doing it I even questioned his credentials and he said he was a nurse, dumb me believed him, he was even wearing scrubs.

My thoughts on this is Alma Lasers is aware of this situation, will not return my call and from what I know is still employing this guy to sell their lasers and to make money on the side... Any thoughts, legal advice, anything????

First it was a bad idea to go to a renegade staff member at all. This person decided to " branch out" and steal patients. The situation you have is not uncommon although I have never seen someone have a laser as needed unless they didn't really purchase the laser but instead renting it.

I have been an expert in multiple malpractice cases and there could be some strong issues here. The legal representative for the plaintiff ( you) explores and tries this case out of their own pocket unless you can for over at least $350/hr with the expectation that their output will be recouped in your award or settlement. I find that many of these non medical practitioners go "barefoot" meaning they don't carry malpractice insurance especially if they have little or no assets. If that's the case you may have a very hard time finding representation willing to stay the course.

I doubt alma has any involvement but the sales person does.
THe best bet for you is to find representation that has experience in medi spa malpractice and give them your story. Its important to know the laws of your state in that the vast majority require a medical license to purchase the laser which it a real amazing point to me because the same salesperson who knows that a medical license is required will say " anyone can use it" well if that's so how come anyone cant buy it.

I hope all works out for you, do your homework and seek capable counsel.

10.12 | Unregistered Commentergm

Thank you for your response GM... I guess what I don't understand is how this salesman still has a job.... I have contacted Alma, sent them my photos and got no response. The establishment I went to did not own nor were they renting the lasers. The Alma salesman would go to the salon the last Friday of the month, unload the equipment he was to be selling/showing in the esthetician's room and do back to back procedures. For the 360 treatment off each person he would pocket 300.00 and she would get 200.00. He was using equipment he was suppose to be selling/ showing doctors how to use, to make a profit on his companies time... To me, now that Alma is aware of his activities and he still has a job, they condone what took place.

The owner of the salon's attorney has contacted me willing to return my money for the procedures and to release both the esthetician AND the sales person but I am out of pocket so much more and my damage cannot be fixed. It just doesn't seem right; these two made thousands illegally (min. 6 clients x 500.00, 3,000 a month x 24 months = 72,000) permanently damaged my skin with no consequences for their actions....

I find it ridiculous that after so many years there is still a question as to what an esthetician is allowed to do, what the function of a Medical Director is, and what is the difference between a Medical Esthetician vs an Esthetician. If you people can not figure it out.... you should not be doing anything as you do not even know your own function. If there is no specific laws regarding the use of a laser,it is because the laws already exist. It is illegal to practice medicine without a license. If you insist you need special laws to allow you to use a laser, you are wrong as a laser is a surgical device as determined by FDA. I do not know how you would fare if you used an OTC laser for a lot less money. You would save thousands.

My opinion regarding the subject of practicing medicine without a license is based on a medical textbook on the subject. Since it is in a medical surgical text that means it is medical..... no ifs ands or buts. Some cosmetic procedures are surgical (like a face lift) but it was in a surgical text book because it is medical..Virtually all the procedures done by estheticians were discovered by dermatologists and they are medical procedures. The exact definition of surgery is.... Any procedure that alters the appearance, structure or function of the area being treated is medical. Hair removal by laser is surgical because you have to destroy tissue (the root) to be effective (that alters the function of the follicle).If you don't do that .... all you get is a laser shave. The reason FDA refuses to allow laser users to advertise "permanent or painless" is because this was never proven to the satisfaction of FDA. Now after more than 10 years, the laser industry still has not proven it is permanent and we all know it is not painless.The only deaths reported by FDA, here on the FDA web site) is due to allergy to the pain medication used to prevent pain of a "painless" procedure.. The definition of "permanent reduction" seems to have been written by a group of lawyers because it makes no sense at all..

When I went to school the owner started out with a complete disclosure of the laws we were to work under. A complete review of the hours of instruction needed to take the state licensing exam, the money returned if we drop out (pro-rata), and a review of the courses and hours needed for each subject (including the state laws). The posts here seem to be so varied for the same subject that one can only wonder who wrote them. Each state has their own regulations and the people who wrote them have little or none laser experience.

10.15 | Unregistered Commenterlefty2g

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