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IPL & Cosmetic Laser User Groups > Syneron user group

Carlos

We looked at the Palomar quite closely when we were investigating the various systems. I must admit I liked the Palomar but Ididn't like their prices. It appears to be a generally good system the treatment area with each head is larger than the syneron but their pulse max is low and expensive. As usual (I believe) there is an EPROM in the head which closes it down after a certain number of shots as Lisa said the syneron is unlimited shots which balances the smaller treatment area but it may take longer. The other one I suggest you look at is the sciton the only problem with them is the base unit has most of the expensive bits (erbium/YAG/BBL) in it so we chose against it as we hope to get a second base unit when necessary and spread the heads around. Finally whatever you choose get everything in writing and signed in blood as verbal promises don't necessarily translate to delivery.

Good luck.

Any more comments on the matrix RF???

David

07.30 | Unregistered CommenterDavid

drdjin,

Sry I didnt comment sooner. I am suprised u had 'peeling' issues with those heads although almost any head on any laser/IPL can cause a burn. The other issue with syneron is arcing but the adverse event is minor and fortunately also on my wife - sry honey honest! Be careful with the contact and don't use too much gel.

SR/SRA picking up pigment can result in a coffee ground appearance as the melanocytes die and get shed off.

My personal opinion (IMHO) as I am a newbie at this is be conservative. I have never seen Mulholland live but as an expert he has the experience to treat more agressively. If u r conservative you may have to treat again but in aesthetics avoiding preventable adverse events is essential. Work up to higher settings as u get a better feel for the machine and your client. Beware of environmental tanning.

Good luck

David

07.30 | Unregistered CommenterDavid

Hi all,

I am new in this group but I have used syneron laser for 8 years. I upgraded my e-max 2 years ago with the SR, LV,ST
DSL and Matrix RF. Personally, I like the SR and the Matrix RF but not the DSL and the LV. I am also getting the new e-Matrix next week, I will share my experience later on.

08.1 | Unregistered CommenterN L

Hi NL and welcome.

Can u let us know how the e-matrix goes pls.

David

08.6 | Unregistered CommenterDavid

David,

There is no EPROM in the Palomar system that will shut down any of the IPL or laser hand pieces after a certain amount of pulses. I have had some hand pieces that have gone 100K pulses and then crapped out shortly after that and I have one that has gone over 400K pulses and is still kicking. There may be an EPROM inside the Palomar equipment that would keep you from repairing the hand piece by yourself, but I am not sure about that piece of information

Texas Laser,

Thanks for the info. I must be mistaken. I just remember I liked the kit but it seemed expensive even for an aesthetic system and I thought there were limited pulses. I may love gadgets but even I wouldn' take the risk of fixing one of those baby's. They have got you comming and going and they are not embarassed about it one bit.

Thanks again for the info

Rgds

David

08.7 | Unregistered CommenterDavid

Hi all

I am glad that David put up this thread. I have been a Syneron user since late 2003. I have tried and used most of their system. I like the syneron system is most of all, they are safe, almost no consumables, effective, good technical support, don't break down very often, in that order. So I can delegate most of the procedures to my clinic assistants.
I am based in asia and most of my patients have asian skin.

I guess I am from the old school, before syneron name their machines with names like Aurora and Polaris instead of SRA or SR or DSL. May be let me clarify a bit about the evolution of their products. Now it sounds like I am a sales rep, but I am not. I also use other laser systems or at least tested many, and I will try to compare them to the Syneron systems.

First I will try to explain names and abbreviations especially for those who are not familiar with the Syneron systems. Forgive me if my wave length may be bit off. Everyone should know Syneron machines are all bipolar RF + laser or infrared, or IPL.

1. IPL , they put out the Pitanga and Aurora, Pitanga is a weaker version for beauty saloon and Aurora is for doctors.
I did not own any of these 2, I already had 2 IPL systems at that time but very strong competition was coming from
other doctors in the region using Syneron machines and that prompted me to look into the Syneron product.

2. Then came the Polaris, should be your SR. It is a RF+910 laser. At those years they did not have a e-Max base units to
fit in different heads. Each individual heads would fit into a base unit. The Polaris was great, safe and consistantly
delivering results. Actually at the time I was deciding whether to buy the Polaris or the Thermage. The Thermage, first
generation, worked, but not on everybody, and with the cost of the consumables and the pain and uncertainty of the
outcome, I decided to buy the Polaris. And until today it still remains the most popular procedure in the clinic. We do an
average of 10 Polaris each day.

3. Then came the Velasmooth, I really did not need this machine but just for the sake of completeness and for my ego
because I was the first one to own this machine in the region, and so was the Polaris and the Comet and among
others. The Velasmooth or Velashape should really belong to a beauty saloon or a spa, unless you are a plastic
surgeon, then it makes more sense after a liposuction you can reduce the lumpiness. It is good for cellulite though,
but it is not a money maker. But in later days I found out it is not a complete waste of money because it renders my
results with the Ultrashape more effectively.

4. Then came the Comet, your DSL, I already had a Cutera's Coolgide Excel for hair removal and telangiectasia. The
Coolglide is an excellant machine for hair removal and telangiectasia and also reticular veins (size up to 3mm diameter)
I bought the Comet because it was supposed to be able to remove even light or blond hair and also very safe for type
4 skin. The truth is, it is safe for type 4 skin but not really effective for blondies. I also tested their Leg vein head (LV),
I was not impressed. Coolglide (Long pulse 1064) does a better job. Also the LV is no good for telangiectasia. I own
both the Coolglide Excel and the Coolglide Vantage. I did not want to go up to the Xeo level, I have tested the Titan, not
impressed. May be I have not given it a better chance, main reason is I don't like the local sales rep. I don't know about
North America, in our region, sometimes we are blessed because the sales rep can let you test the laser for 2-3
months or at least one week and then bring the machine back every 4 weeks for you to test the same group of
patient for at least 3-4 times until you are satisfied with the result yourself. you don't need to listien or blindly believe
in big names and big companys. And this is exactly the reason why I bought my latest laser recently, the Asclepion
Mediostar for hair removal. No matter how good the coolglide or the comet are (almost all machines are capable of
removing underarm like thick hair), the problem remains, how good are they to remove fine hair. Hopefully the
Mediostar can. By the way Comet is RF+ Diode (810), Mediostar is unique, 810+940nm.

5. Then came the Refirme ST, it is a RF+infrared. I also own this one. This is the period when the Syneron people intro
duced the e-Max plateform . Where the base system is good for attaching different treatment heads, like the Polaris
SR, the Comet DSL or the Refirme ST and later the e matrix. This is a good plateform for the new fellow laser doctors
when they are not so busy at the start. I prefer one base unit for one treatment head, when your practice are getting
busy, you need several units going on at the sametime. Buy the way ,in my area, Syneron guarantee 300000 shots or
one year warranty. My first Polaris heads went out after 1,000,000 shots, and the cost per face comes around to US
10 dollars per treatment. The Refirme is good but not as popular as the Polaris simply because I charge double the
price.

6. Then came the Matrix, or e-Matrix, it was the quick answer of Syneron to all the other Fractional lasers in the market.
This is not a true fractional like the others because this one is non-ablasive. This one is painfull and needs Emla. It
causes mild redness sometimes up to 15 minutes, like the Cooltouch, it works like the cooltouch, for atrophic acne
scars, but 3-4 times less painful, and may be 2-3 times more effective. Yes, I own both of these two but the e-Matrix
had replace the Cooltouch 2, may it rest in peace.

7. Then came the Matrix RF, now the Syneron people had made this very confusing with their naming. The Matrix RF is
a pure RF system with a true ablative function. It is the Syneron answer to the other Fractional lasers like the Frexal,
Palomer, Affirm and the other Fractional CO2 lasers like the Active Fx. I have tested the Matrix RF, it has 3 levels, I
believe the lady who had received one treatment but was red for only one day was because the doctor was too
conservative. She might just gone to level 1 or 2. I f you want true rejuvenation and tightening, you should go to level
3. There is a very distinctive advantage of a pure RF system because it is not light based. I had attended a seminar
from a German doctor who had good experiened with the Matrix RF is that he had good results compared to other
fractional lasers, but the best part is he had no experience with PIH even with type 3 skin. I have done quite a few
test with the Matrix RF, redness for a few days, PIH? no. Results, I am not qualify to say because they are only test
patches.

Reason I do not own this head is because I already been testing a Fractional CO2 laser with good results prior to
several months being given the chance to test the Matrix RF. The big reason why I am not using this Matrix RF is
because the Matrix RF has a chip which you need to finish eveytime. You are given a test tip with 5 shots which
is free, but then when you begin to use the real tip with about 120 shots, good for face, you need to finish it in one go,
You cannot do 30 shots or 50 shots, if you turn off the machine, the tip will no longer function. This has really put me
off for using the Matrix RF. The consumable is about US 100 dollars. Same reason I am reluctnat to use the Frexal
and the Thermage are the cost of their consumable among other reasons.

I hope I have clear things up a little bit. Starting a laser clinic is both exciting and painful, I had gone through this from
10 years ago by myself with no help and a lot of ballony. Just be careful and test the machine yourself, don't believe
in big names.

Hope you all do well

08.23 | Unregistered CommenterNk

Hi I am so very glad to have found this forum!
I have been a Syneron user for the past 5 years and i am wrapped! I have used the Vellashape, Ultrashape, and have had 3 e- lights. ( the reason for so many e-lights was do to changing company’s) I bought the last e light for my company as I had the choice to choose from the above mentioned lasers but chose to stick with Elos.
In my opinion, e-light is the most versatile unit giving me the option of DS, SRA, ST and AC. I just sold the SR head as I didn’t find much use for it. I operate in Sydney Au and have found that I need allot of RF and optical light due to harsh sun damage and SRA is a huge money maker combined with ST, you have yourself a celeb package as i like to call it. I have achieved amazing results for my patients and erased literally 10 years off their face.
I was considering seriously buying the e max. The prices are very good. I would like invest in it simply for the doul benefits of IPL and LASER.. However, after reading the "not so promising results" from the DSL and the LV feed back, I will be reconsidering...

I do however have some major questions if anyone can please help me out...

I bought my e light in Australia and we have I have consumabls. Each head only guaranteed for 100,00 pulses, but with exception of 300,000 shots on the ST head, I need to know at what point they will completely black out?
I have pushed my ST head well beyond 300,000 pulses and same with the DS head.. They are both now being refurbished with "Matrix lasers" in Utah..
In Australia the distributor for Syneron has told me I could ONLY buy new heads from him at $7,500.00 each! Glad I waited because i found out in USA they replace them up to 3 years... Since I bought it from the distributor in Australia I unfortunatly can not get this deal but I did find "matrix lasers" who will refurb for about $1500. Each. They also bought my SR head for 3000.00 torwds my credit on the refurbish...

If anyone can tell me about the shots and the life time or how many shots they have gone over the "preventative maintence" point, i would be very grateful.
I am an American living in Autralia opperating a laser company.

Cheers,
Kelly

09.4 | Unregistered CommenterKelly

Dear Kelly

I am glad that we share the same good feeling with Syneron's machines. We have in our clinic 2 e-max base units, one base unit deicated to hair removal and one base units for SR (polaris). We are running 2 SR treatment heads, 2 DS (comet) heads, one ST (refirme) and one e-matrix everyday. May be I have mislead you to think that the DS hair removal head is no good, in fact it is good and safe and as effective as any other laser system for hair removal in the market. It is also relatively painless compare to many other systems. The negatives are the DS is not really effective for blond hair or fine hair like facial hair, and the treatment head is heavy.

I don't use the LV head as it is really not effective to treat reticular veins or telangiectasia, comparing to the two other system I have, the Coolglide Excel (Cutera) and the Mediostar (Asclepion).

As to your questions of warranty and shots. The Syneron people in my region (asia) have one year warranty or 300,000 shots per treatment head, but they have recently gone up to 500,000 shots. I have used or still using about 10 different heads over the years. I was really lucky that the first SR Polaris head died out after 1,000,000. shots. Most of the other heads can go up to 500,000 shots. I had 2 instances that the heads gone busted around 200,000 shots, but they had replace them since they were still within the one year warranty. The local agent here has been very fair. But the treatment heads cost me US 10,000 dollars. So I think you got a good deal, but I don't mind because I got good service from them, because whenever any of my treatment head is not working, they will give me another one on the same day or the next day to use as a temporary replacement until they fixed the old one.

I hope this will help

Nk

09.10 | Unregistered CommenterNk

Anyone has experience with the e-matrix on scars?

09.26 | Unregistered CommenterCanMD

Atrophic or hypertrophic ? The e-matrix (not the same as matrix RF) is a non-ablative fractional laser with RF. For atrophic scars like acne or chickenpox scar, it is ok, when compare to the Cooltouch, it is much less painful, produces better result with no down time. Reddness does not last for more than 30 minutes.

However I have never seen a more than 50% improvement with atrophic scar. I have been using the e-matrix for 3 years. I do not use it for hypertrophic scars. Since 9 months ago I have my fractional CO2 (Korean). I usually tell the patient to do a full face e-matrix and then followed by the Fractional CO2 for spot treatments. With repeated treatments 3-5 times, more than 50% improvement can be achieved in many cases.

09.28 | Unregistered CommenterNk

How much is the e-matrix?
I was planning to buy a Fraxel Re:pair but have been reading about the e-matrix. Has anyone actually seen tightening with this device? Any comparative experience with the Fraxel re:pair?

Matrix IR is not eMatrix.
it requires cool gel on the skin prior txt.

Matrix RF = eMatrix
it needs 2 shots of Johnny Walker on rocks prior txt.

10.8 | Unregistered Commenterc.lee

Again, the Syneron people have made the naming quite confusing.
First, the treatment heads, Matrix IR and Matrix RF are both treatment heads. Matrix IR is a non invasive bipolar RF with a 915 nm laser. It has been around four 4 years. Matrix RF is the latest, it is a pure RF device but is fractional and invasive, it punches tiny holes just like other fractional lasers.

As for the base units where the treatment heads can be fixed on, there is the e-Max and the e-Matrix. The e-Max accomodates all different kinds of syneron's treatment heads, the WRA, DSL, Matrix IR and the Matrix RF.
The e-matrix is a small size table top unit that is dedicated to fit the Matrix RF treatment head only.

10.9 | Unregistered CommenterNk

Thank you for that clarification.

What I was asking was, do you know what the sublative e-Matrix (understanding that it is a stand-alone unit) costs?

And, of course, whether anyone has had experience with it's effects they would like to share, especially relative to the effects of the fractional ablative CO2 Fraxel Re:pair. I am especially interested in potential tightening effects.

sherylcmd

The stand alone table top unit cost around US 40000 or a bit more in Asia.It is relatively cheap but it will not fit the other Syneron treatment heads. The draw back of this system is that the treatment head (Matrix RF) is a dispensible. They will give you a test tip for free with a purchase of a full tip. The test tip has 5 shots and the full tip, cost around US100 has 120 shots, enough for a full face. The other big problem is once you fit the tip on the treatment head, you have to finish it all, you cannot fire 50 shots, turn off the machine, and come back to do the remaining shots. They be gone and you have to use a new tip.

That's why I am not using the e-Matrix. I have tested it, seemed good, no PIH with the few cases I tested. I do use a Korean fractional CO2 extensively which should be comparable to the Fraxel re:pair.

As for the tightening from the e-Matrix, I don't have enough experience to say, though I 've heard some good comments from other users.

10.11 | Unregistered CommenterNk

I dont belive

10.20 | Unregistered Commenterdr eliseu

I do matrix RF 4-5 times a week. I am seeing some promising results from my Matrix Rf. However, it will work better if you combine the treatment with other modalities. Yes the tip is incredibly expensive. It can only fire 125 pulses which sometimes makes it really expensive to treat the whole face as to my experience it may take up to 150 to do the whole face.
It is fast, painless, and relatively easy to manage for my patients.

10.20 | Unregistered Commenterc.lee

I am seeing a lot of the laser manufacturer such as syneron is reducing the prices of their lasers.
The recently launched the velashape 2 is almosts 50% off the first velashape 1; however, the velashape2 now requires the operators to pay for an arm and a leg for the consumables tip for each hour of usage.

This applies on Matrix RF / Ematrix as well, cost of the laser is low, but the operating cost for each treatment ( tip) is high, and this is the " hidden cost". I like matrix rf, as I am seeing the result, (well, my patients are seeing the results, that is the most important part + less redness + no PIH)

10.21 | Unregistered Commenterc.lee

I need studies and parameters off lva syneron.
Can anybody help me?
carlosmj321@hotmail.com

10.28 | Unregistered Commentercarlos

Hi all,
I plan to buy emax for personal use since the price goes down so mcch for the use ones.
I need help from all of you on these questions:
1. emax 2006 and 2007 are the same?
2. Is emax break down easily? How offten?
3. do I have to bring it for a service every once in a while even though I don't use much
Thanks in advance
ML

12.8 | Unregistered CommenterML

never get used in my honest opinion.
u can buy a demo from syneron.
with used, u will never get new upgrade.
what if emax broke down, no one can repair your emax ?
emax or any syneron based products are RF based.
Not many techs know now to service syneron based products.

Matrix rf is awesome, but if u need to upgrade, u will not able to upgrade matrxi rf applicator as software on used emax is not working.

emax is an excellent workhorse of my laser centre, but, why not pay a little more to get emax with warranty?

12.8 | Unregistered Commenterc.lee

Please read my previous posts for clarification. The e-Max is the platform where different treatment heads can be attached to and perform their individual task. The e-max by itself is meaningless. Please get the latest version of their e-Max platform because it supports all of Syneron's products, of course not the Velashape or Velasmooth. The earliest e-Max they put out, not sure which year, will not support the Matrix-RF.

12.9 | Unregistered CommenterNk

Dear all
Thanks so much for your replies.
Emax price for used is recently drop so much. I can find 2007 low used emax with 3 basic heads for 20,000.
But I bet the demo from emax would cost much more and I am not able to afford it.
I will find the one which support Matrix - RF if it doesn't cost much otherwise I will buy 2007 with ST, SR, and DS that would be enough for my need.
Thanks you all
ML

12.15 | Unregistered CommenterML

@ ML, Matrix RF is an excellent. There is a new upgrade on the handpiece and the tips now. Matrix rf has consumable. Each treatment requires a consumable tip. I doubt you will be able to buy the tip directly from syneron if you buy used. Just my 2 cents.

12.15 | Unregistered Commenterc.lee

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