Intense Pulse Light & Sciton BBL

Chat transcript from: Tuesday February 24, 2009.

Intense Pulsed Light Users Group

Sciton BBL Treatment Parameters: Pigment & Redness


Start Time: 08:19 PM
Guest_1: Hello Han
Guest_1: Hello Everyone. The Chat will start promptly at 9:00 pm Eastern
Guest_1: This is the Intense Pulse Light - Broadband Light Chat
Guest_1: Be right back
Jeff E: han is that you?
Jeff E: This is the mapa ipl-bbl Chat hosted by
Jeff E: Welcome
Jeff E: The Chat will begin promptly at 9:00 pm Eastern
Jeff E: Intense Pulsed Light
Jeff E: Broadband Light
Jeff E: Hello
Jeff E: ipl Chat starts at 9 pm Eastern
Jeff E: hi doug
dougcarrow: Hi Jeff. Again, thanks for having me.
Jeff E: You are welcome
Jeff E: So far it is just you and me
Jeff E: i am not sure han is here
Jeff E: Han, are you here?
dougcarrow: That's okay.
Jeff E: we are having a fractional chat next week on wednesday
Jeff E: it would be nice to have you again to tell us about your ProFractional
Jeff E: Even though it is erbium, we want to learn about all fractional technology
dougcarrow: i would like to be there also. We have a product that i feel not enough people know about or understand.
Jeff E: i sense that what matters is how deep, how wide and how much ablation and how much coagulation occurs
dougcarrow: You say even though as if it's lesser
Jeff E: Guest 1, great to see you again
Jeff E: co2 seems to be the consensus "Gold Standard". Erbium is always referred to as the step child
dougcarrow: You hit the nail on the head Jeff. Skin doesn't know if you are using Fraxel, Active fx etc. The histology is what matters. We can drill holes just as deep with as much coagulation as co2 lasers. We like to think of it as a long pulse erbium or dual mode erbium to avoid being lumped into the "erbium" bucket.
han: Hello ,second time posting i am newbe.please tell me how to overcome the difficulties of hair removal in areas like lip and chin using the bbl.Energy more than 15j/15msc is dangerous at this areas?.Close shaving is so much of paramount importence?
Jeff E: do you have histology that shows how deep, how wide and how much ablation and coagulation?
Jeff E: Hey han, great to have you!
dougcarrow: Yes.
Jeff E: that is great. do you think most fractional companies have that information about their lasers?
Jeff E: Han, we treat to clinical endpoint
Jeff E: this is redness, hair popping and perifollicular edema
Jeff E: i use a magnifying loop to better see the end point
Jeff E: i mainly use the LightSheer Diode 810 for lhr, but i think bbl would be similar. Doug what do you think?
dougcarrow: Han- a few questions. what are the skintypes you are treating and what filters are you using?
Jeff E: han, where is your clinic?
Jeff E: treating skin types 1-3 (maybe 4), filters in the 600s?
dougcarrow: The endpoint is the endpoint.
Jeff E: meaning?
Jeff E: can profractional go 800 microns deep?
han: i am treating mostly II,III,IV.My practice is in Europe.
dougcarrow: Yes. it can go 1.2 millimeters.
dougcarrow: Han- what filters are you using?
Jeff E: If you go 1200 microns deep, what percent is ablation and what percent of the crater is coagulation
dougcarrow: It depends on how much coagulation you decide to add. You can have next to zero or up to 150 microns in co2 emulation mode.
dougcarrow: You control the amount you want to add.
Jeff E: so the max coagulation would be 150 microns and the rest of the crater (1050 microns) would be ablation?
Jeff E: hi guest one. who are you?
han: i am using for hr,640 sometimes 695.i have used 560(by mistake),with excellent long term hr results ,despite the minor burning.
Guest_1: Just joined conversation (PacificMedDoc). Sounds like the chat is about eCO2, not ipl
Guest_1: PacificMedDoc = Sandra l
Jeff E: you can dial for 800 microns and it would be 800 ablation, 0 coagulation or 650 microns ablation and 150 coagulation?
han: HI,i am from europe ,not so much experience with the sciton platform.
Jeff E: we are doing both, we think fast and type fast
Jeff E: Hey Sandra! Good to see you.
dougcarrow: han- what is the problem you are having around the lip. Is it an ergonomics issue or results issue?
Jeff E: do you have the bbl?
Jeff E: Sandra, what ipl do you have?
Jeff E: han are you in germany?
dougcarrow: No it would be additive. If you dialed in 800 microns then it will drill a 800 micron hole and if you chose 150 coag. then that would be on sides and bottom.
Guest_1: When you type a response please address of whom you are speaking to. It will help.
Jeff E: so, you can only do 150 microns of coagulation maximally? the rest is ablation?
Guest_1: i have the Epilight. My tech is getting about 75% hair removal using the 695 mostly and 755 filters. We are starting to decrease the pulse duration to get the fine/light hairs.
Jeff E: i think the UltraPulse DeepFx is 60-70% ablation and the rest coagulation. For 800 micons, you get 560 microns ablation and 240 microns ablation
Jeff E: i wonder which is better? Maybe we can do some split face studies
dougcarrow: Jeff- Yes, we go up to 150 microns. What do you mean by "only"?t
Jeff E: Sandra, what type of ipl do you have?
Jeff E: oh
han: both ,but mostly results issue,mainly arround lip corners.Parameters such as 16/20,640 filter are acceptable?
Jeff E: what is the epilight?
Jeff E: what company?
dougcarrow: Guest1- have you ever used the 640 for those lighter finer hairs?
Jeff E: compared to the ultrapulse deepfx, the gold standard, it is only 150 microns
Guest_1: Jeff, so i don't have % of what amount of hair i am getting. We talked about getting a lightsheer, but if i replace the ipl, i will get another ipl because i live in a small town and i don't make the big bucks/month you guys do. Usually that is my gross/year. And i am about the only one in town.
Jeff E: hans, lip corners are tough. the hair there is tough. also hair on corners on chin is tough
dougcarrow: Jeff- i have their histologies and that's not what they show.
Jeff E: these hairs may take a few extra treatments
Jeff E: is the epilight an ipl?
Jeff E: Doug, Guest 1 is my good friend Sandra
Guest_1: You mentioned the Gentlease of which i know has been out there for awhile. By the way, the laser broker offer me the Sheer for $25; don't know which model...
han: han ,i am from greece.Difficult to stay awake for long....
dougcarrow: han- do you have a protocol issued from Sciton? Your settings are well within the recommended parameters. If you need a protocol sent to you i can do so if you give me your email address. You can also email me if you like at
dougcarrow: The epilight was made by esc. esc bought Coherent and became Lumenis.
dougcarrow: Nice to meet you Sandra
Guest_1: Epi and Vasculight, both. There are ipl, Vasculight has the 1064 Nd:yag for veins, Lumenis product. Still work great, but no way to cool the skin, except with gel or my Zimmer.
dougcarrow: Han- sciton has another forum on this site. Charry, also from Greece i think, is a great resource. Please post any questions you have in the Sciton users group and one of our users will get you any answer you need.
Guest_1: Yes, i didn't think it worked. The tech that talked to me told me to do this. We are trying to shorten the pulse duration and deliver more intense treatment to the finer/lighter hairs.
Jeff E: By the way, once we are finished tonight, we can continue this conversation on MedicalSpaMD. This conversation will be archived and we can post follow up stuff
Guest_1: We have used this machine for 6 years, Dougcarrow.
Jeff E: Sandra are you in Lewistown Idaho?
han: jeff,using more energy,or reducing pulse windth is mandatory?15 joules ,640 filter isthe final limit?Can i use 16joules/15msec?My mail is you in advance.
Jeff E: GentleLase from Candela 755 Alexandrite and 1064 ND:Yag?
dougcarrow: sandra- makes sense. finer and lighter hairs are always the tough ones. i would think that if you used a filter higher on the melanin curve and also combined short pulses you might have a better chance.
Jeff E: LightSheer Diode 810 from Lumenis for $25,000?
Jeff E: doug, really? i think that is what i have been told.
Jeff E: i will check right now
Guest_1: Yes. My machine was made in 2001. i have filters from 515 to 755 for it, i just replace a filter, not head.
Jeff E: han, you need to read the posts on to learn how to use the bbl and you need to join mapa! This is the best training.
Jeff E: Doug, this is the DeepFx histology that i have. 15 mj energy; 500 microns ablation and 200 microns coagulation. Does that sound right?
dougcarrow: Han- i will send you a hair removal protocol. You will then have my email address and please feel free to contact me anytime you feel you need further help.
Guest_1: i know it is a dinosaur, works on Windows 95, that is why is has 3 second delay for the next pulse. The new ones run on an updated operating system so the delay is only 1 second. If i was during that many treatments, ya i probably would have needed a new machine long ago.
Jeff E: Sandra, do treatments take a long time because you have to manualy cool?
Jeff E: Han, that is a great idea and it will get you the help you need. Charry is an expert
Guest_1: What time is it there? Thee chats are saved and you can get them later.
dougcarrow: Do you have the actual histology or are you telling me someones interpretation of the histology? let me get in my lumenis files and see what i can find.
Guest_1: Jeff, What do you charge for off the face areas using ipl for photo rejuvenation, like the arms, legs, back, chest?
han: Dougcarrow ,thank you.
Guest_1: Yes, Dougcarrow, you are right about the origin of the Epi/vasculight.
Jeff E: Sandra, if you get an ipl you should strongly consider the bbl from Sciton. It does hair, pigment, redness and skin tightening. You can also add Profractional with is an erbium which goes deep and is fractional.
Guest_1: dc, nice to meet you. What are you practicing in?
Guest_1: i meant Where, not what
Guest_1: i can type faster than i can make sense, sorry
Guest_1: i am 2 hours South of Spokane, wa
Jeff E: hans, send me an email at and i will give you more information about mapa. For one dollar (you would have to send me some Greek paper money), i will hook you into an amazing resource of expert cosmetic laser physicians and providers
Jeff E: mapa is Medical Aesthetic Practice Association
Guest_1: To All, i have the Lutronic eCO2, i wish i could correlate what settings you guys are using with your machines to the ones we are using for my machine.
Guest_1: Lewiston, Idaho, yes.
Jeff E:
Jeff E: Hans, try the above link to see how to join mapa
Jeff E: 3 second delay? It must take forever to do a treatment! How large is the spot size?
Guest_1: Jeff e, Yes, that is what is offered to sell it to me. i haven't seen one less than 35-45. That is a steal, if you want one. i think you might get it lower, because i only counter him once and then i told him i needed to think about it.
Jeff E: i have to go now. Great to talk to you all. Hans, get in touch with me. Doug lets talk ablation/coagulation later.
Jeff E: i have a photo of a histology slide
Guest_1: Gentlelase has the sapphire chilling tip so it is painless?
Jeff E: doug is from Sciton. He is the vp in charge of Sales and Marketing
Jeff E: Sandra, lets discuss with Doug.
Guest_1: Doug, are you a sales rep from Sciton?
Jeff E: He can tell us about the Profractional, i can tell about the Deepfx and you can tell about the lutronics
Jeff E: MIke Moreno is a good guy.
Guest_1: Most people tolerate a little pain and we don't usually cool an area, unless the client is skimish about their treatment. i just got the Zimmer with the eCO2, so my tech is working with it. Having the chilled tip would be more convenient.
Guest_1: Jeff, What is the Gentelase selling for nowdays?
Guest_1: i see.
Jeff E: i invited Doug and he has always been upfront about the fact that he is from Sciton. We are lucky to have him with us
han: goodmorning ,or goodnight dear colleagues.
Guest_1: i am sure he is when you are the one recommending him, thanks, i see what you mean
Guest_1: By Han
dougcarrow: Sandra- i am a guest tonight of Jeff. i am the director of sales development at Sciton and since the discussion was on bbl/ipl i wanted to be here to offer any help if needed. Jeff and i have gotten off topic a little tonight though with our fractional discussion.
Jeff E: goodnight. lets stay in touch! great chat. Remember next weeks Fractional Technology Chat
Jeff E: Doug will you come next Wednesday for our Fract Chat
Jeff E: Will you guys be at the aslms in April?
dougcarrow: Sandra- is that the Syneron cO2? Have you been happy?
Guest_1: i have two older IPL's, one with an Nd:yag laser on it. These machines do not have a chilled tip. The only laser that i have tried on myself was the Lightsheer and i didn't feel a thing. Does the GentleLase have that rubberband feeling as well?
Guest_1: i have the Syneron reps here and i threw them out the door. The machine i used didn't hurt initially, but patients skin started to hurt after about 20 minutes. i think it had a lightening fast treatment mode, but i am in a very small town and we just don't have the need for speed at this point.
dougcarrow: i am the Director of Sales Development.
Guest_1: i didn't think the Syneron machine was any better than my older machines.
Guest_1: Of Syneron or Sciton?
Guest_1: My eCO2 is Lutronic
dougcarrow: Jeff- i have a histology slide of lumenis as well that I'd like to discuss another time.
Guest_1: i am not sure i need an Erbium laser as i have the fractionated co2, but i have considered updating my ipl.
dougcarrow: i will do my best to be there and of course we will be at aslms. That's our favorite show.
dougcarrow: Sandra- Sciton.
Guest_1: Do you know the advantages of your system to the old ipl that i have?
Guest_1: Most of my clients are skin type 2, with a few 3's
dougcarrow: Sandra- yes, i know all about your ipl and how it compares. i was fortunate enough to get into this business in 1995 and seen a lot since then. While my intent tonight was not to sell, i would be happy to discuss anything you like offline.
dougcarrow: Thanks again Jeff.
Jeff E: Good Night to All --- Great Chat. mapa Chat!
Guest_1: Sandra got kicked off
End Time: 10:12 PM